Big XII "It's way too early to tell" Predictions

[Vlyrock]

So who finishes where and who wins the Big XII Championship:

Big 12 South
1) Oklahoma
2) Texas
3) Texas A&M
4) Texas Tech
5) Oklahoma State
6) Baylor


Big 12 North
1) Nebraska
2) Colorado
3) Kansas
4) Missouri
5) Iowa State
6) Kansas State

Big XII Championship:
Oklahoma over Nebraska

[KCAggie]

South:
1. Oklahoma
2. Texas
3. A&M (though I believe they will finish first)
4. Tech
5. OK state
6. Baylor

North:
1. Nebraska
2. Colorado
3. Missouri
4. Iowa St.
5. Kansas
6. Kansas St.

Championship:
Oklahoma over Nebraska

[GregH]

So who finishes where and who wins the Big XII Championship:

Big 12 South
1) Oklahoma
2) Texas
3) Texas A&M
4) Texas Tech
5) Oklahoma State
6) Baylor


Big 12 North
1) Nebraska
2) Colorado
3) Kansas
4) Missouri
5) Iowa State
6) Kansas State

Big XII Championship:
Oklahoma over Nebraska

I think you hit this on the head.:gig:

[Loftin]

North:
1.Nebraska
2.Iowa State
3.Kansas
4.Colorado
5.Missouri
6.Kansas State

South:
1.Oklahoma
2.texas
3.Texas Tech
4.Texas A&M
5.Oklahoma State
6.Baylor

Nebraska wins Big XII Championship

[Vlyrock]

I just don't think Nebraska can win it until they find an offense. They lost the RB that carried them in the Alamo Bowl last year. Without him, I think they may be in trouble. I gave them the benefit of the doubt to romp through the North -- but still don't think they'll be able to take on the South.

[MarylandAG]

Loftin has the south picked pretty much dead on, at least that is the way I see it too. The gap is closing between A&M and Tech, but I still give the edge to Tech a bit, I don't know their schedule but I think is probably pretty easy as it is most years.

[House Divided RV]

Tech has a slightly more difficult non-conference schedule than us. They play UTEP and TCU on the road. I think Loftin is also right on with the South. Until I see A&M looking better on defense against Tech's offense, I will pick them in front of us. I think it will help being at Kyle this year but the defense needs to step up more at home before I will be convinced otherwise.

[Loftin]

We always have a chance when the game is at Kyle Field, but I still think A&M will be 8-4(losses to OU,texas,TT,NU). I just hope that 8 wins(which this schedule all but guarantees) isn't enough for Fran to stay.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope we beat texas, go to a good bowl game and finish the season wrong. I hope Fran is the man and turns this thing around. However, I just don't believe it.

[House Divided RV]

Yeah, I am expecting an 8-4 record as well. I think best-case scenario will probably be 9-3. If we do better than that, we have FINALLY moved forward.

[Dustin00whoop]

I just hope that 8 wins(which this schedule all but guarantees) isn't enough for Fran to stay.

Do you really want to start all over again (especially when we have a young, talented QB on campus)? I witnessed what changing OCs every year can do to a QB. And we all saw what changing HCs during a QBs career can do to him. And if you think that starting all over is a good thing, then tell me who you want us to get, & then tell me who you think we'll get. Because I can guarantee you that after what has happened with our program in the last 8 years, you aren't going to go out & get a big name coach.

[House Divided RV]

I don't see Fran going anywhere in the next 2-3 years. After that if something has not changed in the W-L category, we have to start looking elsewhere again.

[Dustin00whoop]

I don't see Fran going anywhere in the next 2-3 years. After that if something has not changed in the W-L category, we have to start looking elsewhere again.

I will agree with that.

[TomballAg]

South will come down to the winner of the A&M vs. tu game with OU close behind.

[Loftin]

Do you really want to start all over again (especially when we have a young, talented QB on campus)? I witnessed what changing OCs every year can do to a QB. And we all saw what changing HCs during a QBs career can do to him. And if you think that starting all over is a good thing, then tell me who you want us to get, & then tell me who you think we'll get. Because I can guarantee you that after what has happened with our program in the last 8 years, you aren't going to go out & get a big name coach.

I think Mike Price would be a great hire.

[Dustin00whoop]

So we are going to take the guy that Alabama got rid of to replace the guy we stole from Alabama?

[House Divided RV]

Hell, I would take Patterson from TCU. At least his defense can stop someone!

[MarylandAG]

For all that Price is, he is a good coach. So the guy likes strip clubs and some action on the side, he is still a good coach, you can't do what he did with the Miners and not be good. Not saying run out and hire the guy, all I'm saying is give the dude a break he can coach.:)

Pinche I follow your reasoning for not wanting change and what it does to QB etc, but look at the sips, they went through several "Mac's" before they got it right on the third one, three coaches in a span of a few years is alot of change, but ALL that change seemed to work out for them alright, with the new trophy and all;) Let me say that I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but Loftin is right if we go 8-4 Fran may be in trouble, we haven't beaten the sips or land thieves in a long while, we struggle mightly with Tech, and now we struggle with Baylor. For better or worse, the big cigars won't put up with this much longer. 8-4 will cause A LOT, did I say that A LOT of unrest in Aggieland.

I think we do better this year, I love McGee's game, at least what I have seen so far, and I think the kid will prove he can through the pigskin. I'm excited about the stable of back we have, particularly Lane and Goodson (no disrespect to C.Lewis, my personal opinion only, I have been less than impressed), the WR are top notch. As you all mentioned the wild card is the defensive side of the ball.

Last thing, A&M will, IF NECESSARY, be able to attract a big name coach. The facilities are to good, the conference is great, and I think even though we have sucked royally lately, our past reputation will carry us some. I think people like Butch Davis would give us a look. All I'm saying is things aren't so bleak that we would have to go out and hire a Div II coach.

[Dustin00whoop]

Don't forget Pinche....the sips wanted to fire Mack after they lost to OU in '04.

[Vlyrock]

I just hope that 8 wins(which this schedule all but guarantees) isn't enough for Fran to stay.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope we beat texas, go to a good bowl game and finish the season wrong. I hope Fran is the man and turns this thing around. However, I just don't believe it.

I hate that there are so many Aggies wanting to ride Fran out of town already. He's here for at least another season. There are people who actually hope we do terrible so that he gets fired.

Why not support him? Hell, I hope he wins 10 games, gets Big XII coach of the year, and wins the Big XII Championship. I don't care if it means his contract gets extended or he gets another raise -- I'd rather him succeed, then hope for him to fail so we can go through the same thing we've been going through over the last few years.

I think we can win under Fran -- just need a defense to be put together that can play in the Big XII.

[KCAggie]

I couldn't agree more. If fran fails this year to get us to a bowl game then I would want him out, but I would never want us to fail to get him out.

[Loftin]

I don't want us to fail in order for him to leave. Like I said before, I hope I'm wrong and Fran turns the team around. What I don't want is a coach that will take us to a mediocre bowl game every other year and never beat texas or OU staying for doing "good enough."

And for the record, I wanted Fran gone on T+2 2005.

Here's why:
1. Two losing seasons in three years. Before Fran's arrival, Texas A&M had not had a losing season in football since 1982 (Jackie Sherrill's first season). Franchione's overall record at A&M is 16-19.

2. We are 0-3 against texas. I repeat: WE ARE 0-3 AGAINST tEXAS since Fran arrived. If anyone here finds that acceptable, please raise your hand. This is an embarrassment. Our last two head coaches helped build Aggie Football into what it is today by OWNING texas. Two of Fran's 3 losses to texas were in College Station.

3. We are 0-3 against OU since Fran arrived. Before Fran came, the A&M-OU series was always exciting(the record up to that point was 10-11 in OU's favor).

4. 77-0. The worst loss in school history, no explanation needed.

5. First loss to Baylor since 1985.

6. First loss to Iowa State ever. Kyle Field was quiet that day. Despite any arguments, I was there, I saw half the stadium empty in the 3rd quarter.

7. We can't finish seasons. Our record from November-January in the Fran years is 2-9.

8. Fran failed to develop Reggie McNeal. RC Slocum had Reggie headed to Heisman status before the Franchione regression.

9. We can't beat good teams. We are 3-12 against ranked teams since Fran came(Two of the three wins were against teams ranked #25).

10. Our OOC schedule sucks now. RC always had us playing at least one good team every year. The FSU backout wasn't Fran's fault, but scheduling Citadel, Texas State, directional Louisiana schools, etc. is.

11. The Cotton Bowl was an embarrassment on national TV. 38-7...

12. Although recruiting hasn't been bad, our poor play has allowed Texas Tech to catch up with us. This year they recruited about equal to us. texas is also winning more head-to-head recruiting battles with us than they used to.

13. The Wrecking Crew is a complete joke now. We were ranked dead last in the nation last year in passing defense and opponent's 3rd down conversion %. Seriously, defense used to be the pride of Aggie Football.

[Dustin00whoop]

Loftin, people like you will never be satisified unless we win a National Championship. I quit reading your ridiculous post after point number 3, but I should've stopped at point number 2. Mack was 0 for half a decade against OU (their rival) & that is why everyone wanted him gone. Yeah, that looks real smart now.

The bottom line is, when we hired Fran National Analysts said, "Fran will win a national championship at A&M. Give him time!!!" Now I understand that what they think doesn't equal results, but that has never, EVER been said about anything having to do with A&M in any sport.

He has won everywhere he has been. He will win here. Last year was very disappointing. The Cotton Bowl was extremely disappointing. But to call for a guy's head if he wins 8 games in his 4th season (he still doesn't have a team that is 100% his recruits) just shows signs of immaturity & not understanding the process or the game.

Mack is the perfect example that if you let talented coaches work & get their system in place, that the winning will come.

[Dustin00whoop]

Okay, now that I've calmed down a little bit, let me actually break down the BS that is your last post.

1. To go from mediocore to mediocore is easy. To go from mediocore to exceptional sometimes requires going a few steps backwards.

2. I addressed that in the first post.

3. Other than 77-0 that series has still been exciting.

4. You can't blame the current head coach for all of that. Don't forget, we were starting a scrub named Scott Stickane at MLB that year & countless other guys that wouldn't have started for SMU.

5. Its bound to happen at some point. You can't beat a team forever.

6. Maybe that falls on the coach or maybe that falls on the so-called "leaders" of that team. I saw a lot more emotion out of Fran that day than I saw out of our star players. This season will tell us a lot about why that & the CU game happened.

7. Give me a freaking break. Look at our schedule during those times. What was RC's record against tech, OU, & t.u. the last 3 years of his tenure? And look at the players we had on those teams. The cupboard was bare when the new staff came in....again...not their fault. Its not like we're Notre Dame or Penn St. where we can just recruit whoever the hell we want to fix the problem. When you are competing with LSU, OU, & tu for the top recruits in the state, you can't turn things around over night.

8. Bull****...don't speak about things you don't know about it. RC had Reggie thinking he was the God of the campus. Fran brought him back down to Earth & that brought out a piss poor attitude in our stud QB. McNeal never would've won a Heisman after that win against OU. While it was a great win, that was the worse thing that could've happened to him. The only person to blame for Reggie being slightly above average instead of VY is Reggie himself.

9. Again, the talent gap was huge. Combine that with the problems on these teams & you have problems. If you don't see us beating ranked teams this year, then I'll buy it because we have closed the gap tremendously since Fran has been here.

10. None of that is Fran's fault. We aren't the ones backing out of any of those games. The other teams are. Once again, if you don't know what you're talking about, then just don't talk.

11. Same thing as before....you can't expect a head coach to overcome talent, strength, & attitude problems. Tenn. was so much stronger than we were. Plus, the team had to change hotels at 3:00 a.m. so you can throw a little unavoidable sleep deprivation into the equation too.

12. Only about half of tech's guys, if that, will even get into school, so you can't even compare the two. t.u. lost head-to-heads to us up until this year. I guess winning a National Championship will do that.

13. The Wrecking Crew was a joke long before Fran got here. Go back & check the stats.



Back to the drawing board, Loftin. Let me know ahead of time when you are going to blame soaring gas prices on Fran...that way I'll make sure I'm sitting down before I read your post.

[aggieamy07]

Mack is the perfect example that if you let talented coaches work & get their system in place, that the winning will come.
Last time I checked Mack could still win a good chunk of the games.

Mack Brown:

1998
Season: 9-3
Big 12: 6-2 (2nd, South Division)
Final Ranking: 15th AP; 16th USA Today/ESPN
Cotton Bowl win

1999
Season: 9-5
Big 12: 6-2 (1st, South Division)
Final Ranking: 21st AP; 23rd USA Today/ESPN
Big12 Championship loss
Cotton Bowl loss

2000
Season: 9-3
Big 12: 7-1 (2nd, South Division)
Final Ranking: 12th AP; 12th USA Today/ESPN
Holiday Bowl loss

2001
Season: 11-2-0
Big 12: 7-1-0 (T-1st, South Champion)
Final Ranking: 5th AP; 5th USA Today/ESPN
Big12 Championship loss
Holiday Bowl win

2002
Season: 11-2-0
Big 12: 6-2-0 (T-1st, South)
Final Ranking: 6th AP; 7th USA Today/ESPN
Cotton Bowl win

2003
Season: 10-3-0
Big 12: 7-1-0
Final Ranking: 12th AP; 11th USA Today/ESPN
Holiday Bowl loss

2004
Season: 11-1-0
Big 12: 7-1
Final Ranking: 5th AP; 4th USA Today/ESPN
Rose Bowl win

2005
NATIONAL CHAMPIONS
Coach: Mack Brown
Season: 13-0-0
Big 12: 8-0-0
Final Ranking: 1st AP; 1st USA Today/ESPN
Big12 Championship win
Rose Bowl win (NC)

(info taken from http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=36&url_subchannel_id=&url_article_id=1349&change_well_id=2)

Therefore, Mack has always won at least 9 games a season, never lost more than 2 conference games a season, made a bowl EVERY year, and finished ranked every year-not to mention Big12 Champs and National Champs.

VS.

Fran
2003: 4-8 (2-6) no bowl

2004: 7-3 (5-3) Cotton which we were raped a new one at (never seen so many Aggies drinking so early in the morning without it being Chilifest)

2005: 5-6 (3-5) no bowl

[Dustin00whoop]

And the years before Mack got there t.u. was outrecruiting us...therefore, they had the talent already on campus when Mack walked in. How many walk-ons were starting for Mack Brown? Zero. The problem is the talent gap that was here when Fran walked on campus. Because of that, you can't compare the two coaches records during their first 3 seasons. What you can say though, is that Mack was constantly losing to OU despite having the talent on campus & because of that a lot of ignorant, immature, sip fans wanted Mack gone. Now look what they have in Austin

[aggieamy07]

1995
Coach: John Mackovic
Season: 10-2-1
SWC: 7-0 (1st)
Sugar Bowl loss

1996
Coach: John Mackovic
Season: 8-5
Big 12: 6-2 (1st)
Final Ranking: 23rd, AP; 23rd, UPI; 23rd CNN/USA Today
Big12 Championship win
Fiesta Bowl loss

1997
Coach: John Mackovic
Season: 4-7
Big 12: 2-6 (4th-tie, South Division)

4-7 is what out-recruiting A&M gets you...yeah, keep trying with that idea. That's so obviously the answer why Mack was doing so well when he first came. :confused:

[Dustin00whoop]

Are you not understanding the way things work? Let me break it down for you. Good recruits doesn't always mean wins on the field...thats one way that coaches fail. But more often than not, no matter how good of a coach you are, you are going to lose to teams with more talented players. Sorry, but you are just like Loftin...trying to analyze an entire situation by simply looking at records. Its a lot more complicated than that. I've been following recruiting since I was in school--thats damn near 10 years now. Go back & look at it. They were out recruiting our asses.

Now I will give RC this. He was the best at getting the most out of the least talent. And that was okay against the likes of John Blake & Mackovic. But when Mack Brown & Bob Stoops came in, we got our asses handed to us when it came to getting talent on campus. t.u. had the best recruiting class in the nation 4 years ago. They won the National Championship when those guys were either seniors or RS juniors. Recruiting goes a long way to determining wins & losses. When you are playing against top talent in the nation, you can't have walk-ons who haven't lettered in their entire careers starting for you. It just doesn't work.

[CaliHornia]

I have to jump in on this one:

Our last two head coaches helped build Aggie Football into what it is today by OWNING texas.

If Aggie football is what it is today (whatever that is) because of your nice little 84-94 run on us then no wonder Fran can't get it done. You guys also had two major infractions during the time period.

And two of the coaches for Texas during that time period that accounted for 8 of the losses really sucked. Fran could beat McWilliams or Mackovic.

And let's not forget also that one of the guys that OWNED us got owned a bit himself on the downside of his career. I don't think Fran's a very good coach, but I also don't think RC would be beating us right now. And I think you're nuts if you think otherwise.

What distinguishes a decent or good program from a great program or coach isn't a winning record against your rivals anyway. Mack's record against OU is horrible, but he's a great coach. Oklahoma has an all time losing record against us and I count them among the greats.

What makes you great is closing the deal and winning a national championship when you've got the chance.

Texas and Oklahoma have done that, repeatedly. A&M hasn't. Not once since before WWII.

I think there's some truth to both sides of the debate for you guys here.

Dustin seems to be thinking you guys are maybe just a little bit away from turning in a solid 10 win season and on the way to turning the corner.

That could happen, he could be right. You guys have some players. And it may only take one really solid season to turn things around the way you guys have recruited.

But I think at some point a coach has to win games against the teams he's not supposed to beat. Otherwise you're not going to improve your team. The problem with Fran isn't that, though. It's that he doesn't consistently beat the teams he's SUPPOSED to beat.

You can't make it long that way.

At the end of the day, what I think controls are the losses to Tech. Those tell you everything you need to know.

If you look at our team before Robinson arrived, our battles with Tech had turned into crazy, anything-can-happen shootouts. These last two years the games haven't been close. Not even close to close.

Good defensive coaching has eliminated the benefits Tech gets from that gimmicky offense it has.

That Fran has lost twice to Tech pretty badly and only edged them once says quite a bit about him. Tech shouldn't be competing with Texas and A&M. That was a major monkey Mack had to get off his back and Fran's got to get rid of it too.

Bad thing for him is that he's bringing in a guy I don't think is going to fare so well against that spread offense.

I don't know how much you guys will learn about Fran this year, especially if you lose to the big three in the south, but if he also loses to Nebraska, or someone else, then you've got to wonder. His record of winning everywhere he's been isn't quite as good as I think you'd like it to be.

[aggieamy07]

Out-recruiting a team does not guarantee a good season. I do not care what sport you are watching, it takes more than talent to get results.

To cross into a another sport, consider the Aggie basketball team. There is few who will try and argue that the team had the recruiting talent to go as far as they did. The reason they reached the NCAA tournament was the coaching talent and the heart BG was able to draw out of the players. This ability is one of the reaons that both OU and t.u. have done so well under Stoops and Brown. Both coaches started with teams that did not have the recruiting talent to do as well as they did their first seasons. Stoops was able to turn a team around from multiple seasons in which they won 5 or less games-'96 3-8, '97 4-8, '98 5-6 (info from SoonerSports.com)-into a team that won 7 and got a bowl '99. He was able to connect with the players and make them have heart.

Brown does the same. He does things to get the players to believe that he cares about them so that they will lay themselves on the line for him. He connects with them and befriends them. An example from this year would be Brown downloading songs the players enjoy on his i-pod and listening to it, then starting to rap and dance to it in the locker room. ("Players talk about Brown downloading rap songs on his iPod before the season as a way to better connect with them. They say the 54-year-old native of Cookeville, Tenn., did a passable rendition of 50 Cent's "In Da Club" before a practice earlier this season. He even wore a rat trap around his neck before the Texas A&M game to employ a teaching point about trap games." http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2250828 ) A coach that is willing to do things like that is one that players will play their hearts out for. Fran does not get the players to put their hearts into the game. They do not play as a team and and certainly not enough play with their hearts. Yet another example of a coach bringing out heart in a player-and on Kyle Field nonetheless-but not by an Aggie. In 2004 when we played OU one of their players literally worked himself up so much trying to encourage the team and keep them pumped and playing with their hearts that he literally passed out on the field (Dan Cody-same player who called Kyle a Coliseum). No more than two plays later he was back on the field playing his heart out. Fran doesn't inspire players to play like that...and that is why he will never pan out to be the coach that Brown or Stoops is, nor why he will be able to bring the record they do. Even with the talent that we have been bringing in, the "out-recruited" talent, we should still be able to post a better record than we have.

And if nothing else we should have been able to beat Baylor in 2004. Baylor lacked the talent but 2 years in a row have completely shocked us...one of them being on Kyle and when we should have been prepared for it. Yeah in '04 you can say we were just looking ahead to OU, but in sports every game no matter how insignificant it may seem is important and should never be overlooked. Baylor played with heart in both games, we did not.

[aggieamy07]

I think at some point a coach has to win games against the teams he's not supposed to beat. Otherwise you're not going to improve your team. The problem with Fran isn't that, though. It's that he doesn't consistently beat the teams he's SUPPOSED to beat.
EXACTLY my point with Baylor. Have they gotten better recruits since '04? Of course.

[CaliHornia]

Brown does the same. He does things to get the players to believe that he cares about them so that they will lay themselves on the line for him. He connects with them and befriends them. An example from this year would be Brown downloading songs the players enjoy on his i-pod and listening to it, then starting to rap and dance to it in the locker room. ("Players talk about Brown downloading rap songs on his iPod before the season as a way to better connect with them. They say the 54-year-old native of Cookeville, Tenn., did a passable rendition of 50 Cent's "In Da Club" before a practice earlier this season. He even wore a rat trap around his neck before the Texas A&M game to employ a teaching point about trap games." http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2250828 ) A coach that is willing to do things like that is one that players will play their hearts out for.

It's more than that. Go ask Billy Pittman, Bryan Pickryl and Tony Hills, among others, what matters.

All three of those guys were on the edge because of career threatening injuries and Brown stepped up and stood by them and shepherded them through it. For Pittman and Hills, it's worked out. Pittman has been a major contributor after suffering from a debilitating bout with Bell's Palsy and Hills is set to be a major contributor next year.

Pickryl never made the field after his injury, but the way Brown treated him, Pickryl stuck around the program and became a major asset to the team anyway.

I've found out a lot of things about Brown since our Rose Bowl that show me why so many guys want to play for him.

[KCAggie]

I agree, tech is what is killing A&M, not texas. Texas has always out recruited a&m and always will, but recently, tech has closed that bridge to a&m big time. Tech is taking recruits that we would of landed in the mid to late 90's and the state has become a three school battle for recruits instead of two.

Also texas schools have to deal with the other Big 12 schools that have greater access and exposure to texas atheletes than ever before. Back in the SWC days, only Arkansas had big ties with inside the state and their success showed it. The biggest mistake they made was joining the SEC and losing those ties with Texas. They just don't have the same recruiting power in the South East. Texas will always hold their own inside the state, but A&M is now having to battle so many more outside teams than ever before. The recent success of LSU doesn't help matters either.

[Loftin]

1. We haven't gone from mediocre to mediocre, we've gone from mediocre to bad. RC was fired fired for only going 6-6(which doesn't seem so bad now) and losing to texas 3 straight times(sounds familiar).

2. texas is not Oklahoma. texas is unrealistic if they think they can consistently compete with Bob Stoops. texas is a team known for choking in the big games(except in 2005). We get them late in the season and have played them twice in the last three games at Kyle Field. Fran should have won at least once if he were worth $2 million. Maybe you're ok with losing to our arch-rival regularly, but you're also the one who looks at Tech as a rivalry.

3. Exciting losses are still losses.

4. I can blame the coach. If we had lost 49-7, fine, the much better team won at home. Anyone who watched that game knows that OU could have easily put 100 points on us that night. Our offense never passed midfield. That would be an embarrassment for even the likes of SMU.

5. Nope. If you are better, you aren't "overdue" for a loss. The talent difference between A&M and Baylor is so huge that the game should never even be close. Is Rice "bound to" beat texas in their annual matchup in the next few years?

6. Of course Fran showed emotion. That was the day that we all officially realized we were bad and not bowl-bound. His seat became a lot hotter that day.

7. RC played poorly against them his last three years, and the result was him getting fired. Why does Fran deserve any better?

The cupboard was bare? I guess we are a little too hard on Fran when we expect him to win with players like Reggie McNeal, Terrance Murphy, Jaxson Appel, Johnny Jolly, Geoff Hangartner, Courtney Lewis etc.

8. If thinking he was God is what made Reggie so good, then bring on the bad attitude. Vince Young carried the arrogant "I'm God" attitude his last 1-1/2 seasons, and that worked out pretty well.

9. Every recruiting class we've had in the last 5 years was top 25 nationally. We are consistantly bringing in top 25 talent, we should be beating top 25 teams.

10. Like I said, FSU wasn't Fran's fault. Replacing FSU with Division IAA teams is. If we have to play away, so be it. RC played good teams on the road or at nuetral sites. You can't get 3-4 home OOC games a year.

11. UT was the better team at the Cotton Bowl, no doubt. Our team seemed to give up, though. That's a coaching thing. About the hotels, that's the first I've heard of it. Sounds like an excuse though. I sometimes couldn't sleep the night before a big game when I played in high school, but I still had to play.

12. Wouldn't you think that A&M's poor play contributed to that MNC for texas? If we ha beaten them, they wouldn't have even played in the Rose Bowl.

13. Here's our opponent's Points Per Game average the last few seasons:

1998:15.3
1999:19.3
2000:19.9
2001:17.8
2002:23.3
---Fran Arrives---
2003:38.8
2004:24.3
2005:31.2

[Dustin00whoop]

No one ever said that out-recruiting others GUARANTEES a good season. But the results prove that it sure as hell helps. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that more talented players SHOULD beat less talented players...and that happens more often that not.

I think you are underestimating the talent level of the kids that we have on our basketball team. AK was the top JUCO player in the nation last year. Acie Law & JJ were national top 100 guys coming out of high school. 'Tellus was a potential NBA draft pick out of high school. Plus, you can't really even compare the two. If you watch any basketball, you know that one talented guy can make a winning team as long as the supporting cast is decent. See Hakeem, MJ, Lebron, etc. With football, it is more of a true team sport.

There are two kinds of coaches...a players coach & a hard-ass coach. There is no proof that one is better than the other. Joe Paterno, Steve Spurrier, Bill Parcels, Bill Cowher--hard ass coaches. Mack Brown, RC--players coaches. Just because a guy doesn't coach to your style doesn't mean that the way he does things is wrong.

You are bringing up things that you clearly don't know all the details about & you probably don't want to go down this road. But I'll take you a little way & you decide if you want to continue down this path. Lets start with football. The division within the team was nothing that the coaches could control unless you bench some of the most talented players. And of coure, if he did that then people like you & Loftin would be bitching because the stars aren't playing. It is hard to go from a players coach to a hard-ass coach. Some guys adapt & realize that the reason this hard-ass is here is because the other guy wasn't getting it done. Others think they are above the game & will try to continue to do things their own way. That creates division within the team. You can't blame that solely on the coaching staff. Chris Harrington said it this week--the cliques are gone from the team. Thats not because of any other reason except that some guys needed to graduate & thank God they did. Funny you act like you know what Fran does get or doesn't get his players to do, but if you talk to guys that played for him like LT, the Schobel boy from Columbus, & Brody Croyle they all say that Fran made them the man they are today. I guess I could go by what you say, or I could go by what people that have actually played for him say. I think I'll take the latter.

OH, & that Dan Cody think was nothing about emotion & all of 'roid rage...so we could get that kind of reaction out of our players if you want us to start cheating again.

And the Baylor game had nothing to do with coaching. The players simply overlooked Baylor--to which I guess you could say, "The coach shouldn't have let it happened." But the coach can't control everything that an entire team does. And on Thurs. night before that Baylor game, over half the team was out getting loaded until the early morning hours of Friday. As a matter of fact, a certain offensive lineman, who is no longer with the team, ran up over a $1,000 tab at a local establishment. Please tell me how that is the coaches fault. You try to get 45 hung over guys to play a game for 60 minutes to the best of their ability.

Edit for typo!

[Dustin00whoop]

I'm not going to go through that whole list again, Loftin. Its getting ridiculous. But I will say this....all that "talent" that you listed is going to result in MAYBE one guy getting drafted on the first day of the NFL draft. Thats not a lot of talent. Teams like The U have 5-6 drafted in the first round.

Scheduling is not the coaches fault. Not when teams back out of games the season before. Decent teams already have their OOC schedule set by then. You don't get to choose who you play at that point. You play whoever has an open date.

The hotel thing is a fact. My company had a function there that night & saw the team leaving because there were too many people partying in the hallways.

The top 25 talent that we recruited the last 5 years....how much of that actually made it 3-4 years here. I'll bet 50% at best.

Thats the thing with tech...all those guys they are getting to up their standings in recruiting...those guys aren't getting into school. Granted, we need to beat them....but the Ol' Silver Fox lost a lot of games to them when we were ranked & they weren't. And that was even before Leach brought that gimmick offense in their.

Fran deserves more than 3 years because you have to give a guy a fair shake. A raise? Probably not...that was dumb. But you can't fire a guy after 3 seasons...and don't give me that **** about, "Well, Notre Dame did & look at them." We are very far from being Notre Dame.

And on the PPG allowed by the defense...that isn't the head coaches fault...not when the head coach is an offensive minded head coach. The only fault you can lay on him is that he brought in the DC. Fine! That guy is gone. Lets see what happens this year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge Fran supporter. But I think its F-ing crazy to try & run a guy out of town after 3 seasons. You have to give him at least 4. And if we win 8 games this year, then he should stay, but we better win 8-9 the next. That is how programs get rebuilt. Not by constantly changing coaches until you find a guy who can win 10 games in 2 out of his first 3 seasons.

[KCAggie]

It seems that our schedule seems to be a little easier every other year with the even numbered year being on the easier side. My biggest worry is that we get into this pattern where we are good every other year when we get tech, OU, neb, CU all at home and are 1 true tough road game is texas. If we get 8 wins this year, is it because of a good team or a piss easy schedule. If we get 8 wins this year but then lose six games in 2007 when we get OU, tech and Neb all on the road, then we are falling into this every other year B.S. that will never get our program back.

[Dustin00whoop]

It seems that our schedule seems to be a little easier every other year with the even numbered year being on the easier side. My biggest worry is that we get into this pattern where we are good every other year when we get tech, OU, neb, CU all at home and are 1 true tough road game is texas. If we get 8 wins this year, is it because of a good team or a piss easy schedule. If we get 8 wins this year but then lose six games in 2007 when we get OU, tech and Neb all on the road, then we are falling into this every other year B.S. that will never get our program back.

I agree with that. Thats why I said I'm okay with 8 wins this year, but it better be followed up by 8-9 wins minimum the next year.

[KCAggie]

I think the biggest step our program needs to make is to have back to back winning seasons. If we can win 8+ games in 07, then we will be in prime condition to really make some noise on the national level in 08 when all our super sophs are seniors (provided they are still there)

[aggieamy07]

I think you are underestimating the talent level of the kids that we have on our basketball team. AK was the top JUCO player in the nation last year. Acie Law & JJ were national top 100 guys coming out of high school. 'Tellus was a potential NBA draft pick out of high school. Plus, you can't really even compare the two. If you watch any basketball, you know that one talented guy can make a winning team as long as the supporting cast is decent. See Hakeem, MJ, Lebron, etc.
I never underestimated the talent. I just said you can't sit there and say based on the talent we had compared to other schools it wasn't likely to get where we got especially where we came from.

With football, it is more of a true team sport.
That is bull ****. I have been playing basketball since I was 4 and my first REAL team was in 5th grade. Do not sit there and tell me that football is more of a "true" team sport. My dad was a basketball AND football coach and he ALWAYS told me that basketball took a lot more teamwork than football. Players like MJ and Lebron might be good individually but their teams are not successful unless they have the other players to back them up. For example, the Bulls would not have won NBA championships 6 times without players like Pippen, Rodman, Kerr and Kukoc.

There are two kinds of coaches...a players coach & a hard-ass coach.
You forgot the hard-ass that still is personable and then also the coaches that no matter what they are don't get things done.

Just because a guy doesn't coach to your style doesn't mean that the way he does things is wrong.
Again, I don't care how you get it done but if they way you're trying isn't working try a new strategy or get the hell outta dodge.

You are bringing up things that you clearly don't know all the details about & you probably don't want to go down this road.
Cleary don't know about? I may not know first hand, but my friends on the team sure do.

The division within the team was nothing that the coaches could control unless you bench some of the most talented players. And of coure, if he did that then people like you & Loftin would be bitching because the stars aren't playing.

I coached a girls' basketball team for 2 years. If they smarted off to me, went directly against what I asked them to just try to do, or didn't give their all, they were benched. I didn't care how good they were, how much it would make us possibly loose by, or how mad that would make them or their parents. It made a statement. Only one "star" player who had to sit out EVER had to sit out again; the others learned really quickly. At the same time though, I would go shopping with the girls and we'd just hang out a lot. My dad coached the same way. I learned from him how to be a hard-ass coach while still being personable.

You can ask NLPAggie aka Patrick what I thought about Reggie sitting out. I had a HUGE smile on my face. Unfortunately he then told me it was for injury and not because of attitude. So don't sit there and say "people like me" **** when you know so very little about me.

Funny you act like you know what Fran does get or doesn't get his players to do, but if you talk to guys that played for him like LT, the Schobel boy from Columbus, & Brody Croyle they all say that Fran made them the man they are today. I guess I could go by what you say, or I could go by what people that have actually played for him say. I think I'll take the latter.

Or I could go by what my friends who are currently on the team are saying so I guess that is taking the latter...hmmmm...interesting...

OH, & that Dan Cody think was nothing about emotion & all of 'roid rage...so we could get that kind of reaction out of our players if you want us to start cheating again.

You're speculation isn't held at a high enough regard in my book. Prove it. I've searched for over 20 minutes now trying to find anything that might even possibly link him to steriods. Haven't yet even with stretching things.

And the Baylor game had nothing to do with coaching. The players simply overlooked Baylor--to which I guess you could say, "The coach shouldn't have let it happened." But the coach can't control everything that an entire team does. And on Thurs. night before that Baylor game, over half the team was out getting loaded until the early morning hours of Friday. As a matter of fact, a certain offensive lineman, who is no longer with the team, ran up over a $1,000 tap at a local establishment. Please tell me how that is the coaches fault. You try to get 45 hung over guys to play a game for 60 minutes to the best of their ability.
It's the coach's fault if he knew about it. If you don't sit all those guys out and lose it's on the coach's shoulders for not acting on it. No coach is required to play anyone. I don't care if my job is on the line, a game is on a line, whatever...there is no excuse for still playing them and basically rewarding them for their dumb actions.

[CaliHornia]

2. texas is not Oklahoma. texas is unrealistic if they think they can consistently compete with Bob Stoops. texas is a team known for choking in the big games(except in 2005).

Mack has an AP national championship trophy, the ADT national championship trophy and a win against a better coach than Bob Stoops could ever hope to be (Pete Carroll) that says otherwise.

Stoops is good coach, but he's a jerk and recruits (except the occasional south grand prairie star) have caught on.

You need to pull your head out of your a**.

[Dustin00whoop]

Okay, I'm not one of those people to go & cut & paste & put your quote about each thing that I'm talking about, so just follow along paragraph by paragraph. You know what you wrote.

You first two points go back to just being flat out wrong. (and if your dad said that basketball was more of a team sport than football, then, him being flat out wrong also.) You've coached basketball, so I guess you understand this, but I'll say it anyway. In basketball, you can create you own shot. You don't need anyone else. As a matter of fact, its a task for your teammates to keep you down even if they wanted to. With football, nothing gets accomplished unless everyone is on the same page. I don't care if you're Walter Freaking Payton, you aren't getting in the endzone unless someone hands you the ball & blocks for you. True, guys like MJ had role players around them....but it only takes one star to win in basketball. Thats not the case in football. Hell, sometimes you can have 3 huge stars & still not win...see the Colts!

Fran has made it work everywhere else he has been, so obviously his style works. Its the players' attitude that was the problem. That should change this year. There is no need for him to change because a bunch of punk ass kids got their panties in a wad because they are actually having to work in practice. You want to compare something to basketball. Compare the way our two teams took to the new practices. Both coaches Fran & BG have very tough practices. Some members of the football team didn't like that & rebeled against it. The basketball guys took to it. Basketball won, football didn't.

Great if your friends on the team know. Sounds like they may be part of the problem rather than the solution. I can tell you this...the vast majority of the guys that are now on this team buy into the system. If we don't win this year, we can't use that excuse anymore. But I don't think that'll be an issue. If you want to know about all the gory details that happened last year & the year before either PM me or tell me to get into chat, but I'm not airing dirty laundry on a message board for all to see.

You are still in school, so I seriously doubt that the basketball team you were coaching was anywhere to the level that we are talking about here. Until you are making over a million $$$s a year & you have big money boosters breathing down your neck trying to tell you how to run your program, don't come at me trying to compare some Boy & Girls Club coaching job to coaching D1 football at Texas A&M.

Again, sounds like your friends are part of the problem rather than the solution. Hopefully they graduated...or maybe they'll get benched.

Thats like speculating that Barry Bonds took steroids. Anyone that doesn't have their head in the sand can read the writing on the wall. Of course, it isn't documented anywhere. If that were the case you would've heard about OU being put on probation, but we all know that the powers that be would never let that happen.

And speaking of making assumptions...now we are going to assume that Fran knew. And even if he did...what are going to do??? Run Ty Branyon out there with an all walk-on O-line. Either way, we lose to Baylor & you're pissed. Sounds like there is no way this staff can win in your eyes without winning a National Championship. Well, you've got 1 in 119 odds. I'd suggest laying it all on 00 on the roullette wheel...at least you get 1 in 38 odds there.

[CaliHornia]

Dustin's right--you can't compare basketball to football. Take a look at the NCAA right now in basketball and you see teams that have no business competing with the big boys beating them.

You really only need one or two good players to have a good season. Get three and you better be winning 20+ games a year.

College basketball is designed for less talent to compete with more talent (which is why, in my opinion at least, it is becoming unwatchable).

Gillespie's a great coach and he's turned your program around, but a lot of coaches have turned around basketball programs with much less.

In football if any part of your game is weak you're going to get exposed. One or two players doesn't cut it. You can have great skill position players and if you're oline sucks you're sunk.

Your defense has to be solid all the way through or offenses will pick you apart with the pass (if your secondary isn no good) or just stampeded you (if you can't stop the run).

A lot has to go right to have a good football season.

[Dustin00whoop]

Holy ****....I just crawled out from underneath my desk & I'm still alive. I thought the sky was falling there for a little while...Cali agreed with me. :D

[CaliHornia]

Holy ****....I just crawled out from underneath my desk & I'm still alive. I thought the sky was falling there for a little while...Cali agreed with me. :D

Don't get too excited. I still think Fran's not such a good coach. I've seen his record posted on Texags. . .his history isn't quite as impressive as I think you'd like to believe.

The bottom line best thing you can say about him is that the guy came in with a system apparently unsuited for the talent on the field and forced it onto his players.

A good coach would work his offense around the players. Part of the reason why Mack has been so successful is that he's learned that lesson. He has no gimmicks, no "system," no anything that can't be changed to suit the talent on the field.

At the same time, though, he recruits amazingly well to fill in gaps--hard to do when you can't be sure what you'll be running from year to year, but we've gotten better every year.

I just don't think you can blame it all on player attitudes. Unlike Fran, your athletes committed to going to A&M for four years, presumably for no money. They've got four years to make it work and if it doesn't happen, they've got nothing to show for it.

Fran, on the other hand, can leave (and has left) at the drop of a hat after cashing hefty checks.

I think guys like McNeal have a right to expect that they'll be given the absolute best chance to perform, not thrown into a system they're not suited for. I seriously doubt McNeal ever had Heisman chances, but he could have had a better career than he had. Don't think he doesn't know that. And don't think he doesn't know where the blame lies.

It had to be hard for him to watch Vince the last two years. While Vince had the benefit of coaches that let him be him and flourished because of it, Reggie had a coach with a system and a plan totally inconsistent with his talents. And it showed for most of the three years Fran coached him.

[Dustin00whoop]

Okay, but what if the coach feels that his QB is better suited for a spread type, option offense but the QB doesn't agree. And because he doesn't agree, he F-s off during practices, creates cliques, hits players when players can't hit him, etc. Keep in mind, Fran's job is to win games...not give Reggie McNeal an offense that Reggie feels will best showcase his talents for the NFL.

It is very well known that the majority of the guys on the team didn't like or respect Reggie McNeal. Thats not the coaches fault.

[Dustin00whoop]

Oh...and I wasn't excited that you agreed with me...I think "astonished" might be the most appropiate word.

[CaliHornia]

Okay, but what if the coach feels that his QB is better suited for a spread type, option offense but the QB doesn't agree. And because he doesn't agree, he F-s off during practices, creates cliques, hits players when players can't hit him, etc. Keep in mind, Fran's job is to win games...not give Reggie McNeal an offense that Reggie feels will best showcase his talents for the NFL.

It is very well known that the majority of the guys on the team didn't like or respect Reggie McNeal. Thats not the coaches fault.

If a player is sabotaging the team you have to have the balls to put him on the bench.

It's that simple.

If Reggie was doing all that and still playing then either McGee totally sucked in practice or Fran is a complete wimp.

I saw enough of your games last year to know though that you've got a major problem at offensive coordinator. MAJOR. Almost, but not quite, as bad as the problem you had a DC.

When you were unstoppable running the ball against Clemson you. . .mysteriously stopped. At the worst times.

Any good college OC knows you run till they stop you. If you can cram it down their throats you do it. Your OC got cutesy in every game I saw for you guys, save your game against us. Your OC could kill a drive's momentum as fast as any OC in the country.

That's why your scoring averages last year were so deceptive. Against decent defenses, when you had to score, you couldn't do it.

[Dustin00whoop]

I'll give you that Fran handled "The Reggie" situation wrong. I've said that all along. But now that that whole situation is in our past, you have to give the guy another year if he wins 8 games this year--& that is what started this whole discussion. So....we've come full circle.

:rep: to Cali, Loftin, KJK, & Amy for some great discussion. This right here is why I frequent this board. :gig:

[House Divided RV]

I am not going to take on this as Dustin, Loftin, Cali, etc are discussing this but I do want to say that basketball and football should never be compared to each other. I played basketball for 12 years and usually there only needs to have one to two decent to good players to make a difference in a teams turn-around. Remember, you only need 5 guys on the court. Sure you need some teamwork but again one player can make much more of a difference than in football. Almost every major sport in college has the ability to have one player take over. Football requires many different groups within the 11 players on the field to help that guy succeed in that particular play. Jusr something to think about...

[Loftin]

Mack has an AP national championship trophy, the ADT national championship trophy and a win against a better coach than Bob Stoops could ever hope to be (Pete Carroll) that says otherwise.

Stoops is good coach, but he's a jerk and recruits (except the occasional south grand prairie star) have caught on.

You need to pull your head out of your a**.

Like I said, "except 2005." In 2005, Mack had a great year and won the big games. Before that, he had a five-game losing streak to Stoops and no championship of any kind. I repeat: texas cannot consistently compete with Stoops.

[Loftin]

Well, first of all, count me into the "basketball is not comparable to football" camp. If you need proof, look at the 2003 national championship team at Syracuse. Carmelo Anthony came in and dominated the college game. That championship was sandwiched between two decent(not good) seasons.

Calihornia made a good point about systems. Reggie McNeal has never been and never will be an option QB. Reggie is a more pro-style QB who can run when he has to. Time after time in 2005, Reggie was forced to run the option on 3rd down, resulting in wasted opportunities. Also, I firmly believe the coaches discouraged him from running with the ball on pass plays. It seemed that in 2005 he did it far less than in 2004. How many times did Reggie force bad throws in 2005 (which was uncharacteristic of him in earlier seasons)?

The defense sucks because our coach is offensive minded, so it's not his fault? Give me a break, if you can't coach defense you should be an offensive coordinator. I agree that Torbush was deserving of the blame, but so is Fran.

Fran is a hardass coach? Are you serious? He is neither a hardass nor a player's coach. He is an x's and o's coach who looks at football as a math equation that he can simply solve with gameplans.

I also agree with Calihornia about benching Reggie. If Reggie did all those things, I think one or two games with McGee or Branyon starting would have fixed that. When he sits on the bench, he might be more willing to be a team player in order to get back on the field.

Also, if all these seniors were sabotaging the team, shouldn't 2006 be MUCH better? If we go 7-5, will it be because Courtney Lewis, Melvin Bullitt, L'Tydrick Riley and Justin Warren were a cancer in the locker room? At what point do we look at consistent lack of success and see this as a Fran problem.

I saw enough of your games last year to know though that you've got a major problem at offensive coordinator. MAJOR. Almost, but not quite, as bad as the problem you had a DC.

When you were unstoppable running the ball against Clemson you. . .mysteriously stopped. At the worst times.

Major rep for one of the best points in the thread. Lewis and Lane both have had games where they looked unstoppable, but the coaches stubbornly stuck with the option and pass plays. The Clemson game is a good example. Another example is the ISU game. We were neck and neck with ISU, and Jorvorskie Lane was a monster. Mysteriously, after landing one of the best blocks I've ever seen in my life, Lane was benched for 2-1/2 quarters. I know Fran likes to be unpredictable, but as good as our running game is we should stick with it.


:rep: to Cali, Loftin, KJK, & Amy for some great discussion. This right here is why I frequent this board. :gig:


Back at ya. One of the better threads this offseason...

[Vlyrock]

I'm amazed it's made it 50 posts, has stayed reasonably calm and respectful -- goes to show you the difference between here and Texags.

[Dustin00whoop]

Shut The F**k Up, Vly! ;)

[KCAggie]

My TexAgs Post

South:
1. Texas A&M
2. Baylor Cubs
3. OK Lite Cowgirls
4. Oklahoma (place where they stuck the Indians and that stupid Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman movie) Sooners
5. tech sand fleas
6. ***got loving t-sips

A&M big 12 champs!!!!!

[Loftin]

I'm amazed it's made it 50 posts, has stayed reasonably calm and respectful -- goes to show you the difference between here and Texags.

I'm sick of these flame posts by this "vlyrock" troll.:mad:

[CaliHornia]

Like I said, "except 2005." In 2005, Mack had a great year and won the big games. Before that, he had a five-game losing streak to Stoops and no championship of any kind. I repeat: texas cannot consistently compete with Stoops.

I think Stoops had a mystique for five years. We went into games against OU expecting to lose and played like it.

But OU's loss, and a really embarrassing loss, to USC ended that. That USC loss didn't just cost OU a national title.

Mack won a big game in the Rose Bowl against Michigan to close out the 2005 season. And he won big games before that. When you're Texas and you're ranked high and you play a ranked opponent, it's a big game. Period.

And I don't think you can just write off 2005 as a fluke year. A national championship season resulting from beating one of the best teams in college football history (19 guys going pro) with one of the best offenses in college football history and a top four team with several NFL starting calibre players on defenses both on their own turf isn't a fluke. That's not an "except" kind of thing.

Mack has only been one or two games away a few times. We may not beat OU "consistently", we may only beat them half of the time, but Bob Stoops' mental hold on our team is gone.