Insurance Claim Denied

[polish]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2386761

On Bagwell

[Pflugerville Ag]

Interesting.

[NPLAggie07]

I heard this on the First Word this morning. It is sad that it has to end this way.

[texag005]

While I'm a Rangers fan wholeheartedly, I always liked Bagwell and Biggio. It is indeed sad to see his career have to end like this.

[NPLAggie07]

Did anyone see his press conference or hear it? I heard he said something like "I have embarrassed myslef." I know he is either thinking or is going to have another surgery on his shoulder to remove stuff. I know it is a long shot but I hope it works.

[Dustin00whoop]

I don't feel sorry for him at all. He shouldn't have used steroids...allegedly! I feel sorry for Drayton & upper management for having to pay this guy who can't do a damn thing for the team.

[NPLAggie07]

Dustin...where did you hear that he used steroids? The only place I have seen these rumors are on message boards.

I am not saying you are wrong but Bags does not seem like the kind of guy who would use steroids. He has too much self respect and love for the game in my opinion.

[Dustin00whoop]

He has too much self respect and love for the game

Yeah, & everyone thought that about McGwire, too. Listen to anyone talk about investigating the people that allegedly used steroids & you will hear Bagwell's name mentioned along with all the others. Go back & look at him in the early 90s compared to these last few years. His body has made the same changes that Giambi's, Bond's, Sosa's & McGwire's made. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out--just the willingness to see the truth!

[Vlyrock]

The problem has become that nobody in baseball was allowed to get bigger, stronger, or faster in the last 10 years, or else they're steroid users -- whethere they admit it or not.

[Dustin00whoop]

The problem has become that nobody in baseball was allowed to get bigger, stronger, or faster in the last 10 years, or else they're steroid users -- whethere they admit it or not.

Yeah, or develop pock-marked faces, or degenerative injuries! Hmmm....3 players that I can remember that had to retire due to degenerative injuries since the steroid-era began--McGwire, Belle, & Bagwell! All guys who started out small as rookies & got exceptionally bigger as their careers progressed (and became progressively more pock-marked)!

[polish]

What are the Odds Brady Anderson roided up for his 50 homer season

[Dustin00whoop]

What are the Odds Brady Anderson roided up for his 50 homer season

Yeah, that guy disappeared quickly, too!

[Vlyrock]

Umm...can't degenerative injuries also happen because you've played baseball for 15+ years and are in your late 30's to 40's?

[Dustin00whoop]

Umm...can't degenerative injuries also happen because you've played baseball for 15+ years and are in your late 30's to 40's?

Sure...they can happen for a number of reasons! I never said they couldn't. I just said that its pretty ironic that the ones that are having trouble with these injuries (Bonds included) are the ones that are assumed to have used steroids. There are tons of players that play into their late 30s or 40s (Julio Franco, John Franco, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Tim Raines are just a few that come to mind) but you don't see them having those problems.

[KCAggie]

just because someone is a good guy doesn't mean he isn't on steroids. If it wasn't illegal in baseball then, ofcourse people are going to do it. It could be the difference between a 1 million and a 10 million dollar paycheck. And hell, I'll admit it. If I was a young player bouncing around between the majors and minors with no college education making didly squat and it's 1995 and no one cares anyway. **** yeah I'm going to do it, if it means 10 million bucks. And it doesn't mean I'm a bad guy if it means my family is going to be set for generations after me. Does it mean its right, no, but i sure as hell don't blame them for doing it.

[Dustin00whoop]

Thank you, kjk! I wasn't ever saying that I wasn't a big fan of Bagwell's & that I don't thank him for all he has done for the Astros organization over the years. All I'm saying is, is that the writing is on the wall that he probably used steroids. And if you're going to start an investigation on those people that you think took steroids, Bagwell has to be included in that investigation. Don't forget, he did play with & was best buddies with Caminiti!

[Vlyrock]

I'm just saying that just because a player got bigger over 15 years, or has an injury now, doesn't mean they were on steroids. It's a dangerous, and sometimes unfair assumption. I'm not saying Bags did or didn't do steroids, just saying, there's not much evidence other than hearsay. Until a news report comes out with fact, then it's all hearsay anyways.

[Dustin00whoop]

No...not that a player got bigger OR has an injury now, but rather, a player got bigger AND has an injury now. And by what you are saying, then Sosa & McGwire never used steroids either. I never said he used steroids. I said all the signs point to that he did, and that if there is to be an investigation, he needs to be included in it. Find a picture of Bagwell from '91 & he tell me that you don't believe that he was on the juice.

[KCAggie]

Led Zepplin, Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix all wrote better music while "enhanced" on acid - They cheated, I want my money back for their cds that I bought ;)

[Dustin00whoop]

I think the pics speak for themselves.

http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/bagwelltp.jpg

http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/PHO/AAGI112.jpg

[Vlyrock]

McGwire admitted to using that one substance which is now illegal.

Okay, so you want me to compare a picture of a guy now to a picture of him from 1991? 15 years ago? Heck, in that case, my dad must be on steroids cause he's bigger than he was 15 years ago. :)

[Dustin00whoop]

Bigger & more muscular are too different things. Guys like McGwire, Sosa, & Bonds all added "muscle" mass when they were at ages when your body isn't supposed to do that.

[KCAggie]

Just reminded me how ugly those astro uniforms were. I would want to be traded just so I wouldn't have to wear em.

[NPLAggie07]

I agree with Vlyrock...Bags may have taken steroids and if he did then I would think less of him as a person and baseball player. However, I look at his character and I don't see it in him. To tell you the truth I don't see much of a difference between the two pictures you posted.

McGwire used Creatin which was legal at the time. It has since been reported that he was using other steroids. Atleast that is the way I understand it.

[Dustin00whoop]

He is listed at 195 on his rookie cards. There is no way he is anything less than 225 now & its all pure muscle. You find a guy that can add 30 lbs. of solid muscle in his late 20s or early 30s naturally. It just doesn't happen.

On a side note, those 'stros unis were awesome. But they were nothing compared to the old rainbows!

[Dustin00whoop]

Well, naturally, I couldn't find a pic of him when he was younger that showed his forearms, but if nothing else the increase in the size of his head & the increase of the pock-marks are both signs of steroid use. You don't see too many normal people develop complexion problems in the late 20s & 30s. The guy is a freakin' icon in H-town, so I don't think you'll be seeing anyone in the local media going after this story, but he shows the exact same signs that the others show. Its always going to be pure speculation unless an investigation is done, but its obvious you can't judge a guy by how he is perceived in the media. Kirby Puckett was an icon in Minnesota...look how that turned out. Hell, they named a freaking highway after McGwire in St. Louis...and we all know how that turned out. Just because these guys are nice to the press, put on a happy face for fans, & do good things in the community doesn't mean that they are any less of cheaters than Bonds.

[NPLAggie07]

I will agree that because you are nice to the press, it doesn't mean you do not use steroids. Palmerio was the same way and well his situation turned out worse than most.

However, the stuff I hear about Bags comes from players, teamates and former players. All have nothing bad to say about him. I guess I'll agree to disagree, but until I see solid information then I will never believe he took steroids.

[Dustin00whoop]

However, the stuff I hear about Bags comes from players, teamates and former players. All have nothing bad to say about him.

Leaving Canseco out of the equation (since its obvious he had an axe to grind), name anyone in baseball who ever had anything bad to say about McGwire, Palmerio, Sosa, & even Bonds (except that he is an ******* as a teammate). You know as well as I do that there is a "fraternity" type atmosphere among baseball players & they don't roll over on one another. And I don't think there is any question in the unbiased baseball fan's mind that they all were on the juice. The key word in this whole thing is "biased". As sports fans we hate to think that our "heroes" would do something to gain an unfair advantage & compromise the integrity of the game. But I haven't talked to too many fans of the game who aren't just die-hard Astros fans that believe that Bagwell did it all naturally (and there are a lot of die-hard Astros fans like myself who believe that he was using). You clearly are a die-hard Astros fan who refuses to see the writing on the wall, & thats understandable.

We'll agree to disagree, but I hope for the sake of the game that Selig decides to launch an investigation. And I think you would agree that if an investigation is launched, if nothing else, Bagwell needs to be one of those investigated.

[Dustin00whoop]

BTW, I've enjoyed the intelligent conversation & its for that reason that I choose to frequent this site.

[KCAggie]

Baseball should legalize steroids. If you legalize steroids, it’s no longer cheating. Level the playing field for all the players. Steroids will always be used. Every time medicine comes up with a new test, there will be a new steroid that cannot be found with that test.

With the game’s current successes, high attendance, high competition and high player diversity, the game is more popular than ever before.

By legalizing steroids, you place it into the medical marketplace. There will eventually be designer steroids that enhance performance without sacrificing longevity. If anything, we’ll continue to have good baseball and popular baseball.

I know this is a difference stance, but these guys are preformers and society wants them to perform. They are always going to be one step ahead, so the way I look at it, you might as well kick back and enjoy the long homeruns. As long as they entertain us, then really who cares how they are doing it.

I believe bagwell took steroids because he was a part of a generation of players that all did steroids. There is even a huge difference with biggio. Its not like these guys are sitting on a couch in front of a tv with a bag of doritos shooting crap into their asses until they fall off. They are still working harder than any generation of players ever before. Yeah steroids give a little edge, but that edge is a product of an advancing soceity. We build race cars that go faster and have enhancing gasoline, does that mean drivers today are better or have an unfair advantage to race car drivers 50 years ago.

Yeah there are atheletes who do it the right way and it probably isn't fair to them because they care about their life and their health. But those players are quickly being left behind in a competitive sport in a more competitive world. And people are not just looking for an edge in sports, but this problem transends all occupations. It may not be drugs, but people are always looking for ways to get ahead of the next guy.

[Dustin00whoop]

Now, KJK, that opens up a whole new arguement. I understand "leveling the playing field". But what kind of message does that send to our kids? I have a little girl, & I hope someday to have a little boy. I hope they have dreams, just like I did, of one day becoming a big sports star. But, if drugs that are known to harm your body are allowed in sports, then I will STRONGLY discourage my children from ever playing sports. And that would be the hardest thing for me to ever do, because I'm such a huge sports fan.

Not to mention the fact, that you can't allow something that is illegal in our nation to be legal for athletes. What kind of hypocrisy would that be creating? That is the reason that Congress got involved initially, because baseball wasn't doing anything about it.

And where do you draw the line? At professional sports? At the college level? I'm not going to keep paying 4 figures a year to the 12th Man Foundation to go watch a bunch of juiced up college kids 'roid rage on an athletic field.

You create stiffer penalties for offenders & the use of steroids will stop. Yes, there may be someone out there who can create a performance-inhancing drug that there is no test for, but there will eventually be a test for that drug & people will get busted for it. If they are risking getting banned from the game for life for using that drug, then less athletes will take the risk. If you make the risk greater than the reward then the problem will disappear.

[NPLAggie07]

Dustin...I have enjoyed the converstation too. You are right about me. I am a die hard stros' fan and always will be. I went crazy when they reached the World Series last year.

Again, though, I don't think Bagwell used steroids. If Selig does the right thing and does investigate then anyone who is even remotely suspected to use steroids shoud be included. If Bagwell took steroids I will see him in the same light as Bonds. An idiot who didn't respect the game or themselves.

kjk6628...I see your point about making steroids legal. It would then be fair to everyone playing the game now. But, what about all the players before them? Cobb, Aaron, Ruth and many others records would then be marginalized. Baseball more than any other sport is about records and I would hate for them to be tainted.

[KCAggie]

that was more of a sarcastic post more than anything else to show how baseball has really screwed up by waiting so long to ban steroids and how it really is too late. But I do believe that it is a lost cause and steroids will always be a problem in sports. And I also believe that there will be safer streroids that will not have harmful effects on the human body.

The question is at that point is do we still ban them from the game and are the players still cheating if they are using them.

But I agree it is not the right message to send to our kids, but I wonder what value is left in this society anymore where our kids watch things like wrestling where women are beaten and treated like whores and anyone watching late night tv can see half naked girls on girls gone wild commericals (not that I'm complaining)

I also believe that baseball is looking at the smaller picture with steroids and the stance on whether or not it's cheating and overlooking the fact that it is ILLEGAL. Why aren't these guys going to jail.

But for me on a personal level, if bonds whats to juice up and hit 70 homeruns, I'm not going to deny the fact that i wasn't entertained while he did it. And that is his job, to entertain, and from that standpoint he succeeded. It is sending the wrong message to kids, that I agree with, but in the money hungry society we live in, its never going to change.

[KCAggie]

kjk6628...I see your point about making steroids legal. It would then be fair to everyone playing the game now. But, what about all the players before them? Cobb, Aaron, Ruth and many others records would then be marginalized. Baseball more than any other sport is about records and I would hate for them to be tainted.


Players will always have an advantage to the previous generation of players. Its called advancing human society. I have always believed that greatness is not about records, but about how much a player dominates THEIR generation. Comparing Ruth to Bonds is apples and oranges. Ruth couldn't compete in todays game, and basing on his nature, if Ruth played today, probably would be juiced up too. Bonds is the better player, because he is more physically gifted and can do things better than ruth. But Ruth is the greater player

[polish]

You know what Astro I think used Roids. Richard Hidalgo. THe year before he hit like 40+ homers i got his auto personally and he was a skinney ass runt. THe next year he looks like a freakin monster. Now he could have added some muscle no doubt, but the amount of muscle is what i'm questioning.

Then he signs a big contract and quits them. I think the myth about big contract years in the past was actually I took roids for one year in order to get max value. If your production dropped significantly after a contract year, I am very suspicious because I doubt most people are lazy enough not to care. Most athletes want to win too bad.

Oh and
Vly= Harold Reynolds. No baseball player ever did anything wrong and you can't prove it/

[Vlyrock]

Oh and Vly= Harold Reynolds. No baseball player ever did anything wrong and you can't prove it/

No. Vly = the guy who likes to disagree so that a conversation is going. I could care less about baseball players and steroids. I just like playing Devil's Advocate. :)

[Pflugerville Ag]

Nice conversation guys. Most points have already been discussed, so I'll just go on record saying that I agree with pretty much everything that Dustin said.

[Pflugerville Ag]

This is interesting and WAY out there, but a good read. This guy did his research.

http://asher.baseballevolution.com/bagwellconspiracy.html

[Vlyrock]

Yeah, basically, the above article is a name game (like that Kevin Bacon game where you can link any actor to Kevin Bacon in movies they've been in).

The article is way out there and total BS....but if you want to waste 10 minutes, go ahead and read it.

[TomballAg]

Among other things, didn't McGwire take Andro (which was legal at the time)? I thought I remembered somewhere where Bagwell admitted also taking Andro for a brief period of time, but I could be wrong.

[KCAggie]

I think I remember hearing that but I am not positive, but regardless, I am sure he did. It was legal and could be bought at GNC. I don't put much stock into the andro thing though. It was legal, its not banned by the gov't, so i do not think players who used it should be critized.

[Milhouse]

Scary thought, the Babe on roids. Would there have been enough material to even make a uniform to fit him?